Today, I\u2019m talking with New York Governor Kathy Hochul, and I\u2019ll just warn you \u2014 this episode moves really fast. It\u2019s an election year, after all, with a shocking amount of tech policy at stake, and Governor Hochul has taken strong positions on almost every major tech issue there is.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n
For example, Meta just reached a settlement<\/a> with dozens of states, including New York, which will restrict how teens use platforms like Instagram in very specific ways. Governor Hochul is a strong supporter of those restrictions and more, as you\u2019ll hear. But those come with a cost \u2014 widespread age verification means adults will also have to show ID to use the internet, which will essentially make it impossible to be anonymous online.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Verge<\/em> subscribers, don\u2019t forget you get exclusive access to ad-free Decoder<\/em> wherever you get your podcasts. Head here<\/a>. Not a subscriber? You can sign up here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n So I asked about that, and if these new restrictions amount to Meta conceding in a lawsuit that these kinds of regulations on speech might not pass First Amendment scrutiny if the governor were to try and impose them in a law.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n I had similar questions about New York\u2019s restrictions on ghost guns, which prevent 3D printers from printing gun parts. That law is already being challenged \u2014 not in courts, but by activists like Cody Wilson, who runs the largest database of 3D-printable gun files and who has started altering those files in a process he calls \u201cHochulization\u201d<\/a> in order to show the ban is technically toothless. I asked the governor about this, and, well, you\u2019ll hear her challenge Cody right back.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Oh, but there\u2019s more: We also talked about surveillance and Flock cameras, and, of course, the politics of AI and data centers in an election year. Governor Hochul signed a one-year moratorium<\/a> on data center construction in July, and I wanted to know what she\u2019s looking for when that expires to make data centers a workable proposition.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n We also talked a little about Mayor Zohran Mamdani in New York City and, of course, her org chart for the state government. This one is a lot, I think you\u2019re going to like it.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Okay: New York Governor Kathy Hochul, here we go.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Governor Kathy Hochul, you are the governor of the state of New York! Welcome to <\/strong>Decoder<\/em><\/strong>.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Thank you. Happy to be on.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n I have so much to talk to you about. We don\u2019t have a ton of time, so we\u2019re going to move fast. Are you up for it?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n All right. I want to start with what I call the <\/strong>Decoder <\/em><\/strong>questions, lightning round style. I think the operation of your office and state government is really opaque to most people. So I ask everybody this question. How is the governor\u2019s office structured? How did you make decisions about how to structure that office? How did you organize it?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Governor at the top. Then there\u2019s a leadership team, senior leadership team. There\u2019s a secretary to the governor who is the top advisor. It sounds like the person taking notes at meetings, but the secretary of the governor is the most powerful non-elected position in the state. When I first became governor five years ago, I said, \u201cI want the smartest, the best, the brightest people I could surround myself with.\u201d I didn\u2019t know a lot of these individuals, but they were highly recommended from having business experience, government experience, or technological experience. I said, \u201cBring me the smartest.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n There\u2019s a layer of senior team members. There\u2019s one individual who oversees all the agencies. There are 45 different agencies for everything from the Department of Transportation to the environment to our housing development agency, economic development. It all trickles down to a pretty large bureaucracy. I\u2019m the decision maker, but I take input from a lot of different levels of government before I make a final decision. But I\u2019m a fairly quick decision-maker. Show me the facts and I can make a decision instantaneously.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n You took over in a complicated way from your predecessor and then you won reelection. Did you sit down and make an org chart of how you wanted your office to work?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I inherited one in a sense, but also early on I didn\u2019t have a lot of tools. In fact, we had a hurricane in my first week. I didn\u2019t know how to declare a disaster. I hadn\u2019t hired that person yet, the head of emergency services. We were caught off-guard a little bit. The state still functioned, but I knew I needed to do more.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n I\u2019m always in search of talent, smart people, and trying to rotate people in. Sometimes I start commissions like the Future Works Commission to bring in experts, not just from my administration but around the country, who understand the displacement of jobs because of AI: who\u2019s most vulnerable, how we deal with that, and how we train people to be able to overcome those obstacles or to embrace AI as a possible career. I\u2019m always finding ways to supplement my team with industry- or issue-specific experts.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n This question\u2019s going to sound ridiculous, but I\u2019ve asked a lot of people a variation of this question. Almost no one ever is going to sit down and say, \u201cI need to write a new org chart for the governor\u2019s office of New York.\u201d Did you do that on a whiteboard? Did you open PowerPoint? Was it just you alone with a laptop? What was it actually like?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Can I tell you something I\u2019m embarrassed of, since you phrased it that way? I did it on a legal pad.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Yeah, pen and paper. No, it\u2019s great. Very few people do that. You would be surprised at some of the answers we\u2019ve gotten to questions like that.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I just laid out, \u201cThis is what I need, this is the team I need.\u201d Now that was five years ago. I\u2019ve gotten a little better. I\u2019d probably ask Claude or ChatGPT for some recommendations.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Oh boy. We\u2019re going to come to that. Don\u2019t worry about it. You started answering this question, but this is the other <\/strong>Decoder <\/em><\/strong>question. How do you make decisions? What\u2019s your framework?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Bring in all the information as quickly as possible, pressure-test it, and then go with my gut.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n One of the more unique parts about structure in New York government is the relationship between the state and the city. We\u2019re talking here in person in New York City. Mayor Zohran Mamdani has been pretty aggressive about going after billionaires and tech companies. Most recently the city went after Amazon for its labor practices. Do you think that\u2019s been effective here?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I need to make sure that New York City and the state overall continue to be a place where we support innovation, new jobs. Technology is leading the forefront right now. I\u2019m really proud that we now have been named the number-one job creator for tech jobs in the country, surpassing California, which has always dominated in this space. That says something about our ecosystem and I want to foster that. I want people who have just an idea who can use technology to create something that no one else had ever conceived of and be successful in marketing it. That is what I\u2019m leaning hard into.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n The mayor has his own approach, but I think overall we both want New York City to succeed. To me, success also means creating more opportunities for jobs because of the spinoff effect. Five guys in an office right in this building could lead to 500 jobs in a couple of years. Those opportunities help lift people out of their circumstances and achieve what I\u2019m hoping for is more opportunity for more people.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n There\u2019s a WeWork just above us. We got to go find those five guys.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I\u2019m asking specifically about the more aggressive approach the mayor has taken. He\u2019s taken a very aggressive approach. And like you said, the numbers show that the billionaires didn\u2019t run, they\u2019re actually investing; the tech companies didn\u2019t run, they\u2019re actually hiring at a rate that surpasses San Francisco. Is that emboldening you to take a harsher regulatory approach to tech companies?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I don\u2019t just take a regulatory approach for the sake of doing it. I don\u2019t raise taxes for the sake of doing it. I do things in a smart way when it\u2019s necessary. For example, we have regulations on tech companies when it comes to social media for young people under the age of 18. My job is to protect the young people of our state because they have been spiraling with mental health challenges \u2014 exacerbated by the pandemic, yes, but many of them have not overcome that sense of doom and anxiety. It is pervasive in our teenagers particularly.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n I look at my role to regulate tech companies in that space. Before the Meta settlement, we had innovated and come up with probably three years\u2019 worth of reforms to force the companies to do things that they are otherwise not doing on their own, and one would wish they would but that\u2019s probably being too optimistic. We have in place, for example, no notifications to someone under the age of 18 between midnight and 6:00 AM. These kids need to sleep.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n We\u2019re saying addictive algorithms can no longer bombard young people, having \u2014 this is a big deal \u2014 automatic privacy controls that are already set. Parents aren\u2019t expected to understand every platform where their kids may go or any gaming site and have to get ahead of them. That it\u2019s automatic using age verification is really important.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Limiting access to AI chatbots for young people and making sure there are disclaimers so they understand this is not a real person that you think you\u2019re having a relationship with: that\u2019s an example where I think tech needs to be regulated. It went out of control and now the government has to perform a function to protect our residents and our young people, the most vulnerable. I don\u2019t just regulate to stifle their growth. I want them to grow. It\u2019s a smart, strategic, more surgical approach to regulations.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n I\u2019m glad you brought up the Meta settlement. That\u2019s obviously the big news this week. <\/strong>Meta settled with 47 states<\/strong><\/a>, including New York. I look at that settlement, I look at <\/strong>the list of controls<\/strong><\/a> that Meta has agreed to and my initial reaction was this is a bunch of stuff that, if passed as a law, would run into the teeth of the First Amendment. They are effectively speech restrictions, right? We\u2019re going to prevent young people from using these platforms to speak at certain hours of the day.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n And maybe there\u2019s some argument that overcomes the First Amendment objection, right? The teen health risk is so high that this is actually a narrowly crafted, strict scrutiny-abiding restriction, but we don\u2019t know that. That actually hasn\u2019t been challenged in court. Meta just gave that to you. Then there\u2019s age verification to prove that you\u2019re over 18. Even if you\u2019re an adult, you still have to show the internet your ID, which is a big ask for people who are not covered by the restrictions. That\u2019s a big swirl. Do you think you got concessions from Meta that you otherwise would not have been able to get if you just passed the law?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n No, we actually have laws in New York that are more restrictive<\/a> than some of what Meta has agreed to.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Are you worried about the First Amendment implications of some of those laws?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n No, I\u2019m not. And here\u2019s why: we have an opportunity and the responsibility to protect our residents. The First Amendment is when the government says that we\u2019re limiting your speech. Not having notifications that keep you awake all night when you\u2019re a 13-year-old is not restricting your First Amendment right to free speech. There is a difference.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Sometimes the First Amendment is used as any kind of government regulation. People will say, \u201cOh my God, you\u2019re violating the First Amendment\u201d or any of the other amendments. I\u2019m an attorney. I look at it closely. I don\u2019t do things to violate amendments or any laws. It\u2019s not my practice. We\u2019re smart about how we structure these and make sure that we\u2019re protecting First Amendment rights as well as protecting young people from having their mental health monetized by companies who have a profit motive. It\u2019s almost like cigarette smoking. The earlier you get them, the longer you\u2019re going to keep them hooked.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Young people should not be bombarded with the addictive algorithms or be subjected to the bullying that goes on. Someone who\u2019s thinking about suicide searches for \u201csuicide\u201d and is now told different ways to commit suicide. That is terrifying for parents. Parents actually appreciate the fact that they have a voice in government. Maybe it\u2019s because I\u2019m the first mom governor in New York that I understand this. I\u2019ve raised kids. I know the pressures they\u2019re under.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Something else we did: I\u2019m really proud of the fact that we\u2019re the biggest state in the nation to have come up with a full ban on cell phones in schools. Now you can say it\u2019s violating their First Amendment rights. I\u2019m saying I\u2019m protecting them from a lifetime of addiction to a device where they no longer have human relationships.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n You asked how I make decisions. Sometimes I go with my gut, sometimes I want confirmation from the real world and I go out there and talk to people in schools and in cafeterias and have a lot of conversations with young people. When I did round tables around the state of New York for about a solid year to get information, [students] were so anxious about missing a notification. \u201cThe girls are meeting in the restroom to plan activities for Friday night and I just got excluded and I\u2019m also getting knocked out because of what I\u2019m wearing. And now they\u2019ve got a picture of me in an inappropriate way being sent around the school.\u201d These kids are paralyzed. One young person, probably a sixth grader, said to me, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to save us from ourselves. We can\u2019t put these down. We\u2019ll be ostracized.\u201d That\u2019s when I took it to heart and I said, \u201cI will protect you. I\u2019ll protect these kids.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n We literally instituted this in September. The survey results from just this past May show anywhere from 75% to 80% of the schools surveyed have been overwhelmingly positive. The kids who resisted at first are now making friends in person. There\u2019s more communication. They\u2019re learning the interpersonal skills that you\u2019d want your future workforce to have, and they\u2019re playing games at lunchtime. They\u2019re playing cards. They have baseball cards they\u2019re trading. They\u2019re playing chess, bingo. It\u2019s almost silly, but they\u2019re just being kids again. And so they\u2019ve got plenty of time for the stresses of the real world. They can become hooked on social media later on in life. They can get hooked on their device. They can do all this later, but why do we rob their childhood from them?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Sure. I\u2019ve got kids in New York public schools. I\u2019m reasonably happy about the bans. I\u2019m not excited about my daughter ever getting a phone. But if you were to do this straightforwardly in a legislative way, particularly the restrictions that Meta has agreed to, you would have to build out some record and you would have to do some balance of harms analysis. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Here, Meta agreeing to age verification means that I, an adult, have to tell them how old I am with some tool, probably by showing them my ID. That is a big burden on me, an adult, that has nothing to do with the safety of the kids. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n That to me feels like it might not pass the scrutiny that the courts would provide if Meta was like, \u201cActually, this is too much of a burden.\u201d How do you address that? Because the big concern here is that you\u2019ve actually, instead of saying age verification for teens, de-anonymized the internet.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n The proof is the fact that Meta agreed to this in a settlement.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Meta\u2019s looking out for its corporate interest. I\u2019m looking out for my interests as a citizen.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Meta\u2019s looking out for its ability to get more citizens like you to be engaged with it so it can make more money off of you and sell you more products. It\u2019s in Meta\u2019s interest to have you engage. The fact that they\u2019re willing to step back\u2014<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Right. They don\u2019t care if I have to de-anonymize myself to look at Instagram ads for things I don\u2019t need to buy. I\u2019m saying I would like to be anonymous on the internet and if we put age verification everywhere, which is one of the consequences of this agreement, that every platform is going to have to start doing age verification at scale. I won\u2019t be able to use the internet without constantly identifying myself to prove my age.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I\u2019m sure there\u2019s a path forward that doesn\u2019t require you to do this constantly. I\u2019m not aware that you\u2019d have to do it every single time you participate, every time you go to a site. I\u2019m not aware that you\u2019d have to do it that way. Let me find that out. I\u2019m not going to say something without knowing that answer, but it\u2019s an interesting point you raise. It really is. But I\u2019m focused on the fact that we did gather data around the country to find out what is happening to our young people today. I cannot rely on parents to know how to stop this from happening, because the parents are the ones telling me, \u201cPlease do something. I don\u2019t know how to stop this. My kid is spiraling.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n One mom told me that she has her husband leave work every day at three to make sure their son, who\u2019s being bullied in school and harassed and going to dark sites, doesn\u2019t commit suicide when he goes home. Who wants to live with that specter? That was not the case when I was a kid, or my kids were kids.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n The world has changed and again, it is not a no to progress or innovation. I have thousands of examples of me inviting tech companies here. Even Micron, the largest private-sector investment in American history. 50,000 jobs are happening up in Syracuse because I went after them aggressively. They\u2019ll be open in two years. This is extraordinary, building the memory chips that are necessary to power AI in New York state. My credentials are impeccable when it comes to inviting innovation in, but when there are areas where we need guardrails to protect individuals, I\u2019m going to step in and do this. I feel good about this. This is a decision that we\u2019ve made and I think it\u2019s overwhelmingly supported by many parents. Young people someday will appreciate the fact that they were spared from this, and other people who adapt to this, this is the way it is.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/uploads\/chorus_asset\/file\/24792604\/The_Verge_Decoder_Tileart.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&w=2400\"\/)
<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n